A day or so later we find Mack on the sofa when Nan (his wife) and his kids come home. After Nan examines his wounds, Mack begins thinking about his constant companion: The Great Sadness (as he calls it). He likens it to a heavy, burdensome quilt that is draped over his shoulders, causing them to droop and sucking all the color out of life. He then foreshadows Missy’s (daughter) disappearance and begins to tell the story…
By himself, he took three of his girls camping over a Labor Day weekend. On the way, they stopped to see the Multnomah Falls where he retold the Legend of Multnomah Falls to them. Afterwards, they soon arrived at their campground just outside of the town of Joseph, OR.
Once they settled in for the night, his girls began to ask questions about the M.F. Legend, comparing it to Jesus’ sacrifice. It was one of those tender moments parents and children both long for. Questions about Jesus being a legend, if God was “the Great Spirit”, and why was God so mean, were asked. After addressing Missy’s final question, “Daddy? Will I ever have to jump off a cliff?” Mack cuddled her to sleep, wiped his tears and brewed some coffee.
I felt a real sense of foreshadowing with this chapter – I read the back of the book, but am wondering where the author is going with Missy’s questions.
Are we all parents here? Have we not all had those moments of wonderment with our kids?
When Missy (Mack’s 6 yr old daughter) states, “Well, the Great Spirit makes the princess jump off the cliff and makes Jesus die on a cross. That seems pretty mean to me.” [pg 31] is she just stating what we all wrestle with?
If God is love then why does He allow (fill in the blank with a horrific thing) to happen to me/us/them?
Whether it’s a conscious question or not, we all struggle to comprehend how God can be love (1 Corinthians 13:4-7). But because God IS love (1 Jon 4:8) then we ought to trust Him to make the right decisions (or allowances, as it may be); no? But do any of us TRULY do that? And my next question for you is how can one better obtain that level of trust? Or can we? Is that level of trust unattainable unless gifted from God?
And so begins the theology.
God allows everything that He does, for the sake of His glory.
I don’t think we are very good at trusting Him. We do question His judgement at times, or the goodness of a decision.
I was uncomfortable with: Missy: “Is the Great Spirit another name for God — you know, Jesus’ Papa?” …..Mack: “I would suppose so.” Pg. 31
Universalism makes an early entry in this book – for the god of the Native American’s is not the same God that I worship.
Verity,
Why do you say, “for the god of the Native American’s is not the same God that I worship”?
Or maybe, Verity, it’s simply a metaphor (or Jesus and the cross) that a six yr old would understand?
Today was one of my girls’ 7th birthday and one of our traditions is to tell their birth story (or the story of the first time we met, as it may be) over dinner. I was talking about how my brother and I walked all over Seattle because the doctors told me that it helps to make the baby come out sooner. To that my 6yr old son said, “Like Mary and Joseph and the donkey?” I started laughing, telling him that I didn’t have a donkey downtown. But still serious, he responded by asking if that was the reason that Mary and Joseph were walking so far when it was time for her to have a baby.
It’s a silly example but I think that the writer was merely giving a glimpse into where children will take things, in order to understand them. No?
ack.. mis-type
Or maybe, Verity, it’s simply a metaphor (FOR Jesus and the cross) that a 6yr old would understand?
I did not take it as a metaphor… If my son asked me if it were the same God, I would have said no.
The God of the Bible is not the same god that other religions worship…. I think the Bible is pretty clear on that. There were strong penalties in the OT for following other gods. There is no where in the Bible where one says “your god is the same as our God, just with a different name” (I understand Paul did something Like this at Mars Hill – but it was to the unknown god, not merely saying “Hey, Diana there, that’s our God too”.
1-Verity…we are all parents. Those senses of wonderment are so precious.
2-Raquel…God and his ways are so much bigger and more mysterious than we can imagine, huh? But because of this, it come back to his desire for realtionship with us. For me, when the Bible speaks of “believing in” Jesus, it is not a statement about a cognitive nod about his existence, but about trust. If you say to a friend that you “believe in” your husband, what are you saying? I think it is both a gift (as is his relationship, period) and something we grow into as we daily “believe in” him.
3- Verity…we do not always do a good job trusting him or giving him glory. We totally second guess him and the “goodness” of his decision. I guess it is part of us walking through life wearing foggy glasses, we can’t see clearly and only see in part. I echo Jonathan’s question.
One of my most humbling, angering, and life changing times was when we spent a week walking with the Lakota people in South Dakota at the Pine Ridge Reservation. We visited the site of The Wounded Knee Massacre, we talked with tribe members as they shared their experience of what the “white man” did in the name of God. Even the monument we erected on Mount Rushmore for our “heroes” was an intensely disrespectful act. The Black Hills, where Mt.R is located, is their Garden of Eden, where they believe all life was created. So we come in a literally take dynamite to blow up and carve our heroes into their sacred place. And in the midst of it all, they were the most humble, Christ-like people I had met in a long time.
What really got me was when we went to the Native-led Christian College on the reservation and heard about their faith. It sounded different from ours. It sounded very native american. They still held onto their identity, their stories, their legends. The difference was that they realized that the “Great Spirit” that they worshiped was indeed God, our (not like we own him) God. They just didn’t realize it before, but they worshiped what they knew about Him. Then, when all their “sacrificial” legends pointed to Jesus and what he accomplished on the cross, their previous faith paved the way to Jesus. Their’s is a rich faith, complete with legends, dances, and a mix of their identity as native Americans with their identity as followers of Jesus. So, my question is: Was the God they were worshiping before, the “Great Spirit”, the same God we worship?
Verity,
Let’s walk through it..near the top of pg 30…
Mack tells the legend to the kids and then Missie says,
“So it didn’t really happen?”
“It might have sweetie. Sometimes legends are built from real stories, real things that really happen.”
Again silence, then, “So is Jesus a dying legend?” Mack could hear the wheels turning in Kate’s mind.
“No honey, that’s a true story; and do you know what? I think the Indian princess story is probably true too.”
Mack waited while the girls processed their thoughts. Missy was the next to ask, “Is the Great Spirit another name for God – you know Jesus’ papa?”
Mack smiled in the dark. Obviously Nan’s nightly prayers were having an effect. “I would suppose so. It’s a good name for God because He is a spirit and He is great.”
I can see why the reference makes you uncomfortable… I certainly do not want for my children’s view of our triune God to be skewed. But to comprehend someone dying for our sins is a mega concept; even for adults. Honestly, I would have responded differently had I been asked the same question but the book isn’t about me.
I took it as an allegory (like Hinds’ Feet on High Places, Pilgrim’s Progress, or the more recent Black, White, Red trilogy) because further on, Mack kept pointing to Jesus rather than the Great Spirit. Had Mack used the name (Great Spirit) I might have been concerned but it was the six yr old who was trying to understand God’s intentions when He sacrificed His Son.
just my opinion
R- Thanks for bringing us back to the context…
ooooo… good stuff, Jeromy!
When my husband and I got together, about a month or two into us seriously dating, he accidentally called me his ex-girlfriends name. I was hurt… very hurt.
Was I still Raquel? Absolutely! But when he called me someone else’s name, someone who wasn’t me but played the same role for him in his life (that of a girlfriend), I knew that I had not made a strong enough impact on him.
(allow me to explain that last statement).
Who I am isn’t just “girlfriend”. Who I am is curious, stubborn, strong willed, eager, easily amused, blah blah blah. But when he called me homegirls name, I realized that I was still just “girlfriend.”
So, my answer to your question to Verity is no. Absolutely not. Just as one girl isn’t another girl, God isn’t another God with a different name. I think that their realization of Christ is crazy beautiful. But without Jesus being a part of our testimony, we simply don’t have one.
Couple points. Three of the major world religions (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) all worship the God of Abraham. It’s how we get to relationship with that is the important difference.
Two, I would make the assumption that we are worshiping the same God. Why can’t it be? We’re spiritual by nature and the Great Spirit points to a god. Why can’t it be God? I need help with this.
Because if it is, I have begun connecting them to their creator, their Father. And then I can tell them the story of Jesus and his love.
Raquel…good analogy, BUT (do you sense it coming?)…is it still not possible that they were worshiping the one and true God (from what they understood of him) and that God is bog enough to understand their limited knowledge and, as you put it, mis-labeling of him?
Is it possible that the final disclosure (the ahh-hah moment as-it-were) of their journey with God was when it all came to a climax in Jesus? It reminds me a bit of the Jewish narrative…
good stuff guys!
I agree with you that ’seekers’ are much easier to dialog with… like in Liberia they are into voodoo and so they are much more comfortable with the introduction to the Holy Spirit than a lot of fundamentalists are (hope I didn’t upset anyone with that blanket statement…). Would you say that performing voodoo is the same as exhibiting gifts of the Spirit?
We have the New Testament, the Jews have the oral Torah, the Muslims have the Qur’ān, the Mormons have the Book of Mormon. Islamics say that Jesus was a prophet – not the Son of God – not a part of the trinity. Jews say that Jesus has not yet come. Mormons say that Jesus gave them more to write after the New Testament and these writings essentially negate the importance of Jesus and contradict His (NT) teachings.
The ONLY reason that we can have contact to God is through Jesus. To say that we are all worshiping the same God is simply bizarre to me…. I see your point that they all stem from the same father (Abraham) but my brother and I are quite different individuals even though we stem from the same parent. We are not the same person.
Bottom line is without belief in Jesus we are not truly believing in God. They are one in the same. Not separate but triune.
Good and important discussion.
Going back to my experience with listening to their (Native Americans) story. For them, they didn’t see themselves as worshiping one God then switching to the God of Christianity. They worshiped God according to the revelation they had, much like in Romans 1 (“For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made…”). Now were they walking or worshiping in “complete” revelation? No, and they would agree. But when the full revelation of Jesus was made known to them (which aligned wonderfully with their existing “redemptive narratives”, much like the Multnomah Legend) it deepened and fulfilled their previous, limited worship of God. In a sense, their understanding and revelation of God evolved, being consummated in Jesus. Aren’t we all, after all, worshiping God (Father, Son, Spirit) in partial knowledge and revelation? Will not our faith continue to be shaped and evolve as our knowledge and experience increases over our lifetime? Do we not all “know in part”, but will fully know when we are united with our Groom, Jesus?
I saw in them a group of people who love Jesus, their heritage, and their evolving story. I was moved deeply by walking with and listening to them. I will never forget the Lokota people and their faith. They (not all of them) are some of the most sincere, loving, and humble people I’ve met. We have a lot we can learn from them and their culture.
Jeromy,
I too love it when God redeems anyone’s story… but again, there wouldn’t be a redemption story if Jesus wasn’t involved. No?
Yes, I agree that we are worshiping God in partial revelation because we will never fully know who God is (except for maybe when we get to heaven).
But this is different from disregarding who He is! These two are completely different.
If I say that Jesus is not the son of God then I am not only dead wrong but WAAAAY off on who God is. Trinity being the key here. I am then officially building my own God like those that built the wooden calf. To deny Christ is to deny God. THEY ARE ONE.
Ya with me?
We are totally speaking the same language.
They didn’t disregard who he is..they embraced Jesus. They didn’t say he wasn’t God. They just never knew or heard of Jesus yet…until He was revealed. Then their revelation was made complete (as complete as it can be on Earth, I suppose). I really think they were stoked when they were able to personally know and give a name to the “Great Spirit”…you know? But, could not the “Great Spirt” be their name of God as He revealed himself to them as they saw his “invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made…” I think that it is possible––even a beautiful possibility.
Do you hear what I am saying and what I am NOT saying?
Jeromy,
I wonder if you’re a middle child…
I think I sorta kinda hear what you are/not saying?
maybe similar to Acts 17:22-31?
“Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.
“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
Soooo… as long as we’re straight that Jesus Christ is the center focus of man’s salvation (regardless of the path that got us there) then I agree with you
BUT if, not sure whether you beleive this or not, you’re saying that someone who doesn’t believe in Christ can enter heaven then I heartily disagree.
(sorry to bang on the drum so loudly… I just fear apathy towards our brothers rather than an urgency for them to know Jesus.)
Seriously, what makes you think I am a middle child?
I have yet to mention heaven or salvation in this dialogue. I think the bigger question we are dancing around is, “Is it possible for someone to worship (again, not heaven or salvation) God apart from Jesus?”
I want people to know Jesus in a deeply, personal, life-giving way as they live out their identity as his disciple in this world. Hear me on that.
PLEEEEEEEESE answer the question????
Don’t worry about peoples opinion, Jeromy. Just give it to me.
(And you sound like you’re a middle child because you keep making sure that everyone is okay… and smoothing out the edges
Are you OK? You seem frustrated?
LOL
We’re straight. Center of our salvation…absolutely. Center of our life, love, actions…absolutely.
But again, this whole conversation wasn’t about salvation. It was about whether the “Great Spirit” could be God.
Are you the oldest child?
heehee.
Youngest child, which may be worse… So was I right? Are you a middle child??
And back to non-believers and their ability to be worshiping God when they’re worship something else… hehehe
Seriously, yo, I don’t know. I’m going to look into it though because I’m having a hard time finding any scripture on the matter. It doesn’t feel right to me, though. I dunno… I’ll start hunting and get back to you on that one. I’m curious what everyone else’s thoughts are… Guess they’re all at work?
I am the white stuff in the middle.
Raquell, you said, “I too love it when God redeems anyone’s story… but again, there wouldn’t be a redemption story if Jesus wasn’t involved.”
I want to ask a question. When is Jesus not involved in the life of His father’s creation?
The original question was is it possible that the Great Spirit could be God. I guess I don’t hear why not yet.
Romans 10:9-14
“because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved…. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. But HOW ARE THEY TO CALL ON HIM IN WHOM THEY HAVE NOT BELIEVED? AND HOW ARE THEY TO BELIEVE IN HIM OF WHOM THEY HAVE NEVER HEARD? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?”
Salvation comes through a belief in Christ.
the term “gods” is in the NIV 270 times – about all the other gods we are not to worship, about the gods that are not our God. God promises in Isaiah 48:11 that He will not share His glory with another. Which, I think our modern church does, when we say “your God is simply another understanding of my God.”
If they are, in any sense, worshipping God the Father, it is still not a salvific understanding of Him – because salvation must come through the blood of Christ, the belief in it, and our repentance of sin.
But the question wasn’t about salvation. The question was, is it possible for them to be worshiping God based on the limited revelation they have of him? Was is it possible that the Great Spirit could be God?
Back to the original then….
If God can be another god, then how many of them are still Him? What if someone is Hindu, and worships multiple gods? Is just one of their gods our God? Or all of them? Does the god need to be Triune, or can you worship a god that does not really resemble our God at all? How far does one follow this theology?
No Christ = no pardon (Romans 3:23-26)
No Christ = no truth (1 John 5:20)
No Christ = no relationship with God (Romans 5:1)
1 John 4:2-3
“This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: EVERY SPIRIT THAT ACKNOWLEDGES THAT JESUS CHRIST HAS COME IN THE FLESH IS FROM GOD, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus IS NOT from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.”
(caps mine for lack of the option of the normal italics)
So are both of you saying that God is not capable of speaking to his creation in some way? Has not Jesus removed the barrier? And it is not possible that the God they speak of is the God of the universe?
I love how Paul picks the unknown God out from the crowd of gods they worship. What if he had just assumed that none could be God. His point was connecting them to God in some way that spoke to them where they are at. This allowed him to introduce Jesus.
I am not saying that God does not speak to His creation – Romans 1 states that man is responsible on judgement day precisely Because God speaks to us through His creation (verses 19-21). But God does not owe all men the opportunity to reject the Gospel of Christ, or the way of salvation….
If God is the same as the Great Spirit why evangelise then? If they are already worshipping my God, then why offer them Christ, whom they can reject? Are they not better off with a partial, saving truth, then a chance to reject the truth of Christ, and the atonement? How do you determine then who in a tribe still needs Christ for salvation, and who is okay with just their version of God?
And Paul picked the Unknown God. He, in essence says, “The only one you don’t know… that’s GOD. He is your salvation.” Paul is not saying “your Dinah is God… your Zeus is Yahweh.” (I may be mixing up my mythology, but you get the point)
Jonathan,
I fully believe that God has put an ache within humanity for Himself (Christanese calls this a God shaped hole). This is why humanity is hunting for ‘truth’, why so many “gods” are being worshiped. This isn’t that all gods are the One true God. This is just an emptiness within us that we try to fill with ________ (you can fill in the blank with Mohamed, yourself, law, drugs, work, ‘ministry’, family, whatever idol that fills the position that the One true God was intended for).
This is why Paul refers to the “UNKNOWN GOD” that they were worshiping. Reading vs 16-22, you’ll see the terms “foreign gods,” “idols,” and “religious.” He wasn’t referring to their God as THE God – but rather showing them how their God shaped hole could be appropriately filled through Jesus Christ (vs 24-31).
Using, not the term idols or foreign gods, the term ‘unknown God’ is a perfect example of seeking without understanding that which we seek. They didn’t name it Allah (that would be idolatry, thus not God) they named it “unknown God.”
Giving credit to our work for supplying our finances is an example of this. If we were to pray to our bosses and to give them the credit for our paychecks, that would be idolatry. If we give the credit to an ‘unknown God’ this is admitting that the credit shouldn’t go to the boss, but that the credit should go to a God that we have not yet encountered. If we give credit to the One true God, this is what He deserves and asks of us.
whaddayathink?
P.S. Jesus removed the barrier HOWEVER it is only THROUGH HIM that we can reach God. Romans 3:22 says, “This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.” THROUGH faith in Jesus Christ.
God was not accessible to us before Christ; this is true.
He still isn’t accessible without Christ.
Belief in Jesus is like an all access pass. You don’t believe in Jesus, you don’t get the all access pass to God.
John 12:44-46
Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
In vs 48, Jesus goes on to say:
“There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words;”
(The whole passage is fascinating but I figured it would make this comment far too meaty
And how could I forget the one verse that the universe knows my heart? John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Belief in Jesus = eternal life.
John 8:19
“You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”
Okay… I’ll quit now.
I am going to lay my cards on the table. In my opinion, I believe it is possible (again possible, not a certainty) that the “Great Spirit” could have been God. Here is why:
In reality, there is only ONE real, actual, living God. Period. Regardless of what humans think, there is one. This One God created all that there is, including beings in his likeness. Within this created order he plainly revealed himself; his invisible qualities, his eternal power, his divine nature. This self-disclosure was made evident to all of humanity…no favorites, no pre-selection.
So history continues. Humanity spreads across the globe. All of humanity can plainly see the evidence of this One God. The Native Americans step out into the plains, or the hills, or the mountains, or the oceans, or creation… and are awed, inspired, humbled by this one God that is being revealed to them through creation. Their response is that of worship: the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration towards this One God.
However, amazingly, this One God choose to reveal himself to a specific people, the Israelites, in a very specific way. Among other things, he reveals his name (Yahweh). He reveals more of his essence and character. He reveals his desire to bless, provide and forgive. He then reveals Jesus and the once-and-for-all forgiveness he provides. He reveals that beyond knowing “about” Him through creation, you can actually know him…personally. This Jesus cleared the way for this “personal knowing” of this One God.
But, across the pond, we still have the Native Americans worshiping in and out of the original “basic” revelation of this One God through creation. They do not know his name (Yahweh)…so they call him the “Great Spirt”. They only know of his desire to bless and provide, but not his desire to forgive. They know nothing of this Jesus who opened the door to a direct, personal relationship with God. How could they? It has not been revealed to them. GOD CHOSE to reveal these specifics to the Israelites, not them. But, just because they do not have this “specific” revelation (again, not their fault), it does not render null-and-void their worship of the same One God based on the “general” revelation this same God has given them.
But oh the joy they received when they learned (through the Israelites and people like you and me) the “Great Spirit’s” name, Yahweh; when they learned more about his desire to bless, provide and forgive; when they learned that they could access this ONE God through Jesus…and that their own redemption stories (or legends) actually helped pave the way for them to understand what Jesus did. That their general revelation (again, God given…not Satanic, not pagan, not of human origin, but given BY God to Humans) gave way to specific revelation (also, God given). What GOOD NEWS this was to them. This is why they have a “Native American Christianity” and not a “White-European Christianity”.
I see both general and specific revelation as complimenting each other, not at odds. After all, they are both self-disclosures from the same, One God. So for me, it is better to come alongside their “general” revelation, to work within their existing knowledge of this One God, in order to ease the way into the “specific” revelation of Yahweh (Father, Son, Spirit), as opposed to damning their “general” revelation.
So, this is why I believe it is possible that the “Great Spirit” could have been the “general revelation” name for the One God. But only God knows for sure, huh?
Nicole, you said, “If God is the same as the Great Spirit why evangelise then? If they are already worshipping my God, then why offer them Christ, whom they can reject? Are they not better off with a partial, saving truth, then a chance to reject the truth of Christ, and the atonement? How do you determine then who in a tribe still needs Christ for salvation, and who is okay with just their version of God?”
Help me out with this line of reasoning.
Why would you assume that evangelism would stop? Why would you assume they would reject Christ?
Excellent summary of your point of view Jeromy….
Here’s my thought: Acts 17:30 says “the times of ignorance God overlooked, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent.”
IF it were the same God, they still need Christ.
Jonathan – I think it safe to assume that the majority of people reject Christ. I think even of the parable of the seed – of the four seeds spread, only one grew in good soil. Of an entire earth from Adam, to Noah, only Noah was found righteous. Because God has hardened hearts, closed eyes, and stopped ears. Because man is proud… I am not saying that everyone would reject Him – only that if they are already worshipping God, and (lets carry the thought further) going to heaven, then why give them a chance to better understand God, and reject who He is, as a triune being?
Either they are safe in their knowledge and perception of who God is, as He has revealed Himself to them thus far, or they need Christ revealed to them….
Why should evangelism continue? Man, in his fallen state, needs God. Why show people Christ, if they are fine the way they are? What is the motivation for loving, if their understanding of God is as good as mine? Why should I, why do you, why does the emerging church, show love for anyone, if the people we are reaching out don’t need the God of the Bible? I am not being rhetorical – I just don’t understand….
Jeromy,
(without fail I spell your name Jermoy and have to correct it)
you said:
I see both general and specific revelation as complimenting each other, not at odds. After all, they are both self-disclosures from the same, One God. So for me, it is better to come alongside their “general” revelation, to work within their existing knowledge of this One God, in order to ease the way into the “specific” revelation of Yahweh (Father, Son, Spirit), as opposed to damning their “general” revelation.
I think that we agree on this point… that no matter the path, a heart will be softened by it’s past in order to relate to our need for Christ. Whether it’s in awe of creation, in desire for a true father figure because ours sucked, a need to be fully accepted and loved – they’re all pathways that lead to Jesus.
I get more stuck on making sure that it is known that Jesus is the only way to God… the only way to salvation. Without Him, we are not saved. It’s more than relationship with God, it is salvation. On this point, do we agree?
Is not salvation a restored relationship with God, through Jesus?
When I said “more than relationship” I meant more than an avenue through which we can talk with God. So yes, one aspect is a relationship with God through Jesus. It is also being saved from damnation when we ABSOLUTELY don’t deserve it.
Salvation is what happened when Jesus died on the cross. Do we agree?
…and was resurrected. Yep.
See, I knew we were speaking the same language. This has been a great conversation. I hope you’ve been stretched as much as I have been.
ABSOLUTELY! My poor husband is having to listen to me verbally chew on all of this personal inspection of my beliefs… good thing that he loves me!
Crazy enough, I was driving alone tonight (that’s the crazy part) and got a chance to listen to a back log of podcasts. I thought that one of them might be able to give a bit to the conversation that we’re having. It’s SUPER convicting so beware!! (hehehe)
http://www.imagodeicommunity.com/sermon/casting-down-idols-part-2
it’s about 40-45 minutes long if you’re interested in listening.
-Rachel
We have very patient spouses. She doesn’t say so, but I’m positive I drive Jen nuts sometimes with my “verbal” thinking.
I’ll try to listen to it.
Hi, I’m really late and I read most of the comments and skimmed the rest. I just got the book and am about to start Chapter 3 and will catch up, I promise. Don’t mind me, no need to reply since I’m so far behind, but I thought I would share my thoughts.
God is the one trueGod, but the Bible in no way indicates he is the only god (little G). If he were there would be no reason to have the commandment to have no other god before him.
I think there are lots of gods (false gods, mentioned in the Psalms, Jeremiah, etc) that deceive people into thinking they are the real deal. Jeremiah 16:19 talks about people having false gods that do them no good. I do not think the god the Native Americans were worshiping was the same, BUT I think their understanding of their god would help them in some understandings of THE God. Additionally, every culture has stories that help them make sense of TRUTH (every culture has a flood story, but that doesn’t make it THE flood story. They are just there to bring understanding)
Have any of you read Peace Child?
In relation to the book, I agree that there is some great foreshadowing and what we witnessed is a father not really knowing how to answer the question, but trying to soothe his daughter and make sure she doesn’t have an improper picture of God.
I’m also very surprised that you guys didn’t discuss chapter one. There is some meat in there that was hard to ignore.
Sorry (this is about chapter 1 but will come back to 2),
If you look at the author’s word choices for Mack’s thoughts, you will see that he is shaky on his belief about God. He (like the Native Americans) attributes things in nature to some other type of being “god of nature” “power of nature”. We find out later that his wife refers to God as Papa and to read that he thought having a note signed by that name was “horrifying” [pg16] to him.
On page 22 he mentions that telling his wife that God knew what he was doing brought him no comfort. When I first read all of these things, knowing what the back cover says I figured that he got this way after the accident. But in chapter two [pg 31] he concludes that his wife’s prayers with the children are working. Why not his prayers? Maybe he doesn’t pray? So when chapter two got to the point of the girls asking questions, I read it from the standpoint that he really didn’t know what to tell them, because he himself does not know in his heart, only the words to say that make it sound right. That’s what he did with his daughter–just said what would sound right.
Andrea – some excellent insights – glad to have you on board …. (does anyone know who Andrea is? : )
Not I (said the little red hen), but the more the merrier! Welcome Andrea!
Andrea,
You can find our comments about chapter one here: http://theshackreview.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/chapter-one-confluence-of-paths-2/
Welcome to the conversation.
Jeromy
aka Dancer. I know who you are,raquelamisto.
I read her blog, she used to read mine when I wrote on it. Her initial post on the book got me interested, so here I am.
Jeromy, thanks for the link on chapter 1. I’ll go check it out.
YAY! I heart you dancer!
I’m crackin’ up that I didn’t recognize your real name! I miss you! I’m so glad that you’re here… You rock. 100%
. A work of equal value is “A Step Into Deliverance” by Toni Pugh. Its autobiographical content about a pastor’s spiritual journey with God is a real page-turner!
Yeesh – these are a lot of comments to go through. I just finished the book, and had very little problems with it. God didn’t choose an existing people, He raised up a people from one person to be His people (God’s timing is sooooo slow compared to ours…).
Interesting discussion about the “Great Spirit”. Abraham to the generation before Moses had very little to read about their God. Jesus died for people who did not even know Him – ie, Abraham’s faith made Him righteous and was effective only because the death of Christ would happen a couple thousand years later. Nobody in the Old testament had faith in Jesus – just in the God who revealed Himself to them. So can people be saved without using the name of Jesus? Yes. It is still effective, though, only because of Jesus’ finished work.
How much easier it is to understand, though, when we know the whole story. I have no idea how God worked with the First Nations peoples. I do know the Jews who came to Jesus suddenly recognized Him in so much of their “old” faith. Could it not be the same with First Nations? Could not God speak to them in His own way?
Fantastic discussion, but my point here will be a nitpicky one and might be worth correcting.
Mack only had TWO daughters, Katie and Missy. He didn’t take THREE daughters on this camping trip, he took TWO daughters – remember, there were only two in the conversation, and ONE son, Josh.
It’s a tiny thing, but it’s important for later, and it can show a carelessness of reading that may undermine far more important points that you make later on because people aren’t sure you’ve read it closely enough to get the detail down.
As for God, He is infinite and why shouldn’t there be many names for him? Is it that it matters to Him or that it matters to YOU? And if the latter, are you in danger of ‘God in the box’ syndrome?
xx