This chapter opens with Mac dreaming. When he awakes he isn’t sure where he is… and then he remembers that he’s hanging with the Trinity.
They all sit and eat breakfast together, teaching Mac through conversation and actions just who they are and where he stands in relation to them (Him). They speak of man’s desire for power and control, of his lack of trust in their love for him, therefor their lack of relationship with him.
Chapter ends with Sarayu inviting Mac to work in the garden. Mac agrees.
I thought this chapter made a couple of egregious errors. I was troubled by the downplay of both sin, and God’s sovereignty.
All of the following quotes are God talking:
Example of the first:
“I don’t need to punish people for sin. Sin is its own punishment, devouring you from the inside. It’s not my purpose to punish it; it’s my joy to cure it.” pg 120
Examples of the second:
We carefully respect your choices…. Creation has been taken down a very different path than we desired.” Pg 123
“If only you could see how all of this ends and what we will achieve without the violation of one human will.” Pg 125
“I’m not a bully, not some self-centered demanding little diety insisting on my own way.” Pg 126
As time has gone on since first reading this book, I’ve been considering what I exactly beleive about the Trinity. I understand that no human is going to ever peg God fully but there is something that makes me uncomfortable with the description of their “relationship” on pg122.
Please tell me if I read this wrong, but I understood “We don’t need power over the other because we are looking out for the best,” to refer to the Trinity looking out for what’s best for one another within the Trinity??
I’m confused to say the least as to the writers intentions here. Any thoughts?
Nicole, can you help me understand what troubled you?
I need to find my book…joys of having a two-year-old. Once I do, I can freshen up on the chapter and comment some. From reading Rachel’s summary, I like the phrase: “his lack of trust in their love for him”…seems to explain a lot. More when I find the book…
Jeromy,
Any luck finding the book??
Not yet…and I hate loosing books. If I have any idolatry, it would be books.
lol. I hear you. I have already told my dad when he dies, the only thing my siblings and I will be fighting over is his library.
most prized book – Flavel – volume one – from 1701….
totally irrelevant – I’m still here – but really, really busy right now…..
Since you asked Jonathan….
1. I do not see the idea of “sin is its own punishment” anywhere in the Bible. There are alot of things that are a result of Adam and Eve first sinning ie. pain in childbirth, the woman wanting to be the head of her husband, toiling the earth without always seeing profit, death, separation from God… and then the obvious other sins because of the original sin – murder, envy, adultery, etc.
But, God clearly says He will punish sin. How does “sin is its own punishment” fit in with the cross? What did the Savior of the world come to save us from, if not our sins?
“She will bear a son, and you shall call Hisname Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” Matt 1:21
If sin is its own punishment, why did He come?
____________________________________________
2. As far as God’s sovereignty goes – Young makes a mockery of the God I believe in when he says things like “I’m not a bully, not some self-centered demanding little diety insisting on my own way.” As though a God who has His own way is a bully.
“So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills. You will say to me then, ‘Why does He still find fault? FOR WHO CAN RESIST HIS WILL?’ But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, ‘Why have you made me like this?’ Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonable use?” Romans 9:18-21
wow. very well put, verity. when you put it that way…
But is it fair to say that the historical impression of God is of a bully? And is it possible that we’ve missed the predominant image of God who the world sees as nothing more than a mean God intent on catching us in our sins.
I think what Young is getting at is a deeper understand of God’s nature which is love first. He’s not changed by our actions and he does hate sin because it destroys his creation.
And sin as its own consequences. Is it possible that this is both/and rather than either or. Is it possible that we simply miss the second half of the sentence (It’s not my purpose to punish it; it’s my joy to cure it.) Is God’s purpose to punish or is it to restore?
I think (!) that God’s intent has nothing to do with sin, rather it is to restore US. But WE have to be willing. Restoration isn’t a one man plan. A one man plan leads to punishment, both on this earth and afterwards as well. If we can’t see how truly worthless we are, we won’t be able to see how truly beautiful that He is.
I think that they’re are two results from sin. One is in the natural – that painful shame that happens when your spouse catches you lying about what you were doing last night (or whatever). Anyone feels this.
The second, and much more pertinent, result is the deprivation of God’s presence. That is what should cause us pain. That is what should cause us grief. The shame (etc, I prefer to call this natural consequence) felt from our sins can’t hold a light to the immense torment that we ought to feel when we are distant from God. That relationship is the whole point of our lives.
And yes, I agree that it’s His joy to cure ‘it’. But do we even want Him near us? Do we want to be cured? Do we even care? Who’s number one in our lives? Us or Him?
still here…very sick…ttyl…found book…
Nicole – In regards to your above comment, I was seriously thinking about this the other day and perhaps you can help me understand. When I think of God in his sovereignty choosing a select few and rejecting all others, the question that arise for me is, what then is the point? What is the mission God calls you to?
Words seem useless because God has already decided. Love seems useless because in the end, what does it ultimately amount to if God has already predestined them to hell? Sharing God with others seems useless because again, what does it matter…their fate is decided?
I’m trying to be careful here—hear me when I say that I am not judging you but sharing my perspective on this particular theology—but it seems to me to be an elitist theology where “we are in” and “you are out” and there is not a thing you can do about it. It also seems to lend itself to complacency and inwardness; just me and my God…I am so glad he chose me. Again, this is how it seems to me.
So can you help me understand, what is the point? What is the motivation to serve the “other”? What is the mission he calls you to? If you are thinking “the Glory of God” please flesh that out…
Jeromy,
I think that the assumption made (please tell me if I’m wrong) is that Nicole (and all who hold this belief) is running around claiming knowledge of who’s ‘in’ and who’s ‘out’ amidst waving their finger in the air with a smirk in the ‘outers’ direction.
She would also have to have some sort of secret in with God in order for her (or anyone for that matter) to know where God will take each individual on their paths through this life. But that’s a no no.
Sharing her beliefs on this one, I’d venture to say that it isn’t elitist AT ALL. All the more reason to share the gospel. The push to tell anyone and everyone that Jesus is the way (in hopes that they will choose Him) is immense. It is, in fact, the opposite of elitism. True (from what I can tell in the Bible) Christian life isn’t a snubbing, it’s about a constant invitation.
I believe that each invitation is an opportunity for us to take part in God’s plan. We obviously cannot see the big picture. But if someone (including myself) misses an opportunity to get to know God, we pray that God will have mercy on us and for another to follow.
I submit that I do not know, nor can I comprehend, God. But I do know that it’s His deal. This (life) isn’t about us. It’s about Him, for Him.
And so, in our humanness, do we off with portions of the Bible if we don’t like what it says?
There were no assumptions. I simply shared how it seems to me and asked some questions about what the point is and for help understanding. I really do want to understand…
To recap: If God has already decided who’s-in and who’s-out (his choice and knowledge, not ours) then what does it matter what WE do? It’s not going to effect anything—ultimately—in the long run. No matter what WE do, those who are chosen will be in paradise; those not chosen, will not be. So what’s the point? What’s the mission?
To me (again…how I see it), the final statement, regardless how it is worded, seems to boil down to: “We are blessed because he has chosen us as undeserving forgiven-sinners. We feel very sad—our heart even breaks—for the sinners whom he has not chosen; but what do we do, it is his choice and his alone.” What am I not seeing?
So correct if I am wrong (I’m sure I am), but I basically hear you saying this is the mission: whoever you (or another chosen) happen to convert…they are one of the chosen. And those that you (or another chosen) do not convert, the are NOT one of the chosen.
I loved this paragraph in this chapter (kind of random placement but I have to catch up):
“The real underlying flaw in your life, Mackenzie, is that you don’t think that I am GOOD. If you KNEW I was good and that everything—the means, the ends, and all the processes of individual lives—is all covered by my goodness, then while you might not always understand what I am doing, you would trust me. But you don’t. [...] Trust is the fruit of a relationship in which you know you are loved. Because you do not know the I love you, you CANNOT trust me.”
I think this is an image issue. God’s primary image, which was lost in the Garden, is love. Discipline and wrath only work when they stem from love. When we lose the love, discipline and wrath feel ridiculously harsh and controlling.
And that is what I think he was trying to communicate in this chapter. We’ve lost the true image of God.
I believe God’s primary image, as presented in the Bible, is His glory, and His delight in His glory, and His being motivated to reveal His glory, and to have us delight in His glory. Man is not the center of the universe, God is…
Regarding #10:
He is not a mean God sitting around, waiting to catch us in our sins… but when He is infinitely holy, every sin is ultimately a rebellion against Him, and a despising of Him. To suggest He is a bully for being offended at our sin’s ugliness is to diminish both His glory and holiness, as well as the brevity and absolute disgusting nature of our sin…
I think it is God’s purpose to punish the sins of all those who do not believe in Christ as their atonement for sin… and even the idea of “my joy to cure it” leaves out the aspect what actually happened at Calvary – it diminishes the awfulness of Jesus taking on flesh and bearing our sins…
For Jeromy (regarding #13 and 15):
I think Raquel summed things up well for me – Swindoll put it this way – to God they are perceived as the elect, to us they are perceived as the lost. Anyone who does not have Christ, needs Christ – whether they be the Ted Bundy’s of this world, or my two year old daughter…
Your hyper-calvinist extreme does not sit well with my understanding of the Bible either. I am not called to sit back and say “Oh well, God will save them if they are elect.” God does not Need man, but He chooses to work Through man. As the body of Christ, we are exhorted to be the hands and feet and eyes of Christ – to preach the gospel…. I can never know which soil the seeds are falling on – whether the person I am speaking to will or will not ultimately come to know Christ in a saving way. I may never know – one will plant, one will water – but it is God who causes the increase, and gets the glory. I am no less responsible in my role as a Christian to reach out to those around me, than I would be if I did not believe the Bible teaches the predestination of the elect bride of Christ.
In re-reading my own first comment, I am honestly confused at what part of my statement seemed not-okay to you… I just quoted Scripture… ?
that was a mouthful… sorry…
But you quoted scripture to make a pre-destination point about God’s sovereignty. Nothing wrong, just got me thinking…
I had a grand comment full of other questions, but I’ll let it go. Obviously, I don’t believe in this theology or the God it ultimately describes. I can see, however, how this book did not sit well with you given your beliefs. If I believed as you do, it would not sit well with me either.
Regarding his sovereignty, we’re not much different. It is the number of people he has chosen where we differ. You believe he has chosen some. I believe he has chosen all; and that in the end, he will still respect our choices.
Chosen all to what end though? I don’t understand….
Of his love and glory. “Because of that obedience, God lifted him [Jesus] high and honored him far beyond anyone or anything, ever, so that all created beings in heaven and on earth—even those long ago dead and buried—will bow in worship before this Jesus Christ, and call out in praise that he is the Master of all, to the glorious honor of God the Father.”
Chosen some to what end? His glory?
I don’t see how God gets glory by choosing some and damning others (you don’t need to explain…just sharing how I see it). You do. And that’s cool. Which is why you believe what you believe and I don’t. Nothing personal, I just see God differently…
…and I am sure when we truly do see him, we’ll be floored at how different he is than how we “see” him now.
Nicole, I’ll follow on Jeromy and ask, Is God’s greater glory in the restoration of all His creation or some.
You see I’m not trying to dictate what God is going to do. He gets to do what ever he wants. I’m just leaving open the option for both. Scripture doesn’t paint an absolute portrait for us of one or the other. It leaves room for the restoration of all. And so I’ve chosen to allow God to take that route if He wants to.
In fact it would not surprise me if God’s plan is to confound the wise and surprise us all with something we never thought of.
” Scripture doesn’t paint an absolute portrait for us of one or the other.” — Good point.
I’m not trying to dictate either? I was just quoting scripture… I think Romans 9 is a spectacular display of God’s glory being better revealed because of the vessels of wrath He created. God is more glorified when we see His mercy to His children in light of His wrath upon others… How do you read Romans 9?
Romans 9:22,23 “What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory”
I’ve just come upon this site today while doing a little research on this book. The book was recommended to us by our family therapist, a Christian counselor. He recommended it in response to my concern that my husband, who is a Christian, lacks confidence in God’s love for him.
Anyhow, I have found your discussions very interesting and I appreciated all the thought and sincerity I read here.
I just wanted to add my two cents about the predistination topic. I discussed this with a pastor/Bible teacher at some length a few years ago and, again, in a college course. Both of them taught that predestination does not mean that God hand selected who He would save and who He would damn. Rather, He, being omniscient, foreknew who would say “yes” to His offer of forgiveness & salvation. And, these whom He could foresee (since He was not bound by time), He predistined to the salvation He wanted all to have but was only able to give to those who would have the faith to believe, repent, and receive His free gift.
What do you think of that take on the subject?
Who are we to judge someones salvation? We have no power to declare one saved , we have no power to save ourselves. We can’t even breath apart from the life that God has given to us. Why, if we need to question who should be saved did Jesus say
Mar 16:15 …Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
It seems pretty clear that God intended that we all would be invited, but it is also just as clear that some will not accept His invitation or His call.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
In Romans a little more light is shed on this, when Paul says,
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Whosoever, literally means any who wishes to come…so it is apparent that he desires, just as He says, that none should perish. He does not send anyone to Hell, they send themselves there by their rejection of Christ. This is the bane of the Universalist. They cry out that God is somehow unjust if He requires innocent blood for our sins, but none of us are righteous.
It is His law, and His punishment. We are living in His world. This takes the conversation back to the verse, “will the clay say to the Potter…” Job was rebuked by the Lord in a similar fashion,
Job 40:1 And Jehovah answered Job and said:
Job 40:2 Shall a reprover contend with the Almighty? He who reproves God, let him answer it.
Job 40:3 Then Job answered Jehovah and said:
Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile! What shall I answer You? I will put my hand to my mouth.
Job 40:5 Once I have spoken, but I will not answer; yea, twice, but I will go no further.
Job 40:6 And Jehovah answered Job out of the tempest and said:
Job 40:7 Now gird up your loins like a man, and I will question you; and you make Me to know.
Job 40:8 Will you also set aside My judgment; will you condemn Me so that you may be justified?
Job 40:9 And have you an arm like God; or can you thunder with a voice like His?
Job 40:10 Adorn yourself with majesty now, and with grandeur, and clothe yourself with glory and honor;
Job 40:11 pour forth the outbursts of your anger; yea, look on everyone who is proud, and bring him down low;
Job 40:12 look on everyone who is proud, and humble him, and trample the wicked in their place;
Job 40:13 hide them in the dust together; bind their faces in darkness.
Job 40:14 Then I also will confess to you that your right hand can save you.
Who are we to condemn God and call Him unjust, if He desires to humble one and lift up another. if we can be as God, HE says that then we will have the power to save ourselves. But that was the sin of Satan, to be as God, and not content to be in His likeness only.
We forget the Law, that it is our schoolmaster, our teacher, to bring us to Christ. When we see our hopelessness, because we have broken His laws and commandments, we are condemned by the Law. It is to convict us of sin.
We are guilty, filthy sinners in need of a savior. we know from Hebrews Chapter 9 that only by the shedding of blood is there remission, literally there is no pardon without the death penalty.
The Scripture tells us we are condemned without Christ, and that He came to seek and to save.
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
But we need to enter in through Christ alone. Again, the whole idea that Christ didn’t care whether we became Christians, or followers of Christ, instead of followers of some false god or false religious system, is blasphemy of why Christ came and died.
Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
No man comes to the Father except by Christ. Matthew Chapter 7 tells us to expect a narrow way, because the multitudes are headed to hell, and it is our calling to warn them, leading godly lives, forsaking sin, always ready in season and out to give an answer for the hope that is within us. This book appeals to the masses because of its broad worldly message, but the path is the path to destruction. Repent while it is still called today! If you hear His voice!
This conversation about the Shack would never occur if it weren’t for all the heresy and false doctrine that it teaches. It is blasphemous, and treacherous, and as it’s cover says, it is dangerous.
The reason so many get fired up about this book is because it is extra-biblical, it goes beyond the sound doctrine we have learned of Christ, it is out side of truth. We were told what to do with this kind of material in 2 John 1:9-11
Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.
Have you brought this teaching into your house to learn from it? have you given it to others? Then consider 2 John 1:9-11. and do what is right.
Watcher,
Thanks for the verses and sharing your passion. What else did you like about the book?
Jeanie,
Thanks for sharing that insight into predestination. Did you and your husband end up reading the book? If so, what were some of your thoughts?
I read the book, and I know the guy who wrote it. I would not recommend it to anyone I know. It is full of the same stuff that Satan brought to eve and tried to bring to Jesus; just some simple questions to get us thinking about what God really said. Unfortunitely so many people are biblically illiterat and don’t understand what the bible really teaches. Such unsuspecting people are being carried away with every wind of teaching. They are captivated by the philosphy of this world. Paul Young is a wolf in sheeps clothing, he should be exposed as a false teacher.
Jeromy,
Wellll….
after everything I read here, I wasn’t sure it would be a good recommendation to give my husband. (The counselor recommended it to me to get for my hubby.) I’m concerned that he may be more confused by some of the troubling issues than helped by the wonderful facets of a fictional story that depicts meeting the Trinity and walking with Jesus (on water, no less!)
So, no we haven’t. I may just read it myself and see for myself what I think of recommending it.
Thanks for asking.
Did the thoughts about predistination that I wrote of have a ring of truth to you according to all that you know of God’s Word and Nature?
I think reading it for yourself is a good idea (always good to know what you’re recommending to someone
). These are simply our thoughts of the book, not the book itself.
A bit. I do see that in God’s knowledge he knows what is going to happen and who is going to receive his love and believe his forgiveness. I also agree that his foreknowledge is different than him choosing some and damning others. It is a very broad topic with many different degrees of belief……
Mike (comment 31),
I was wondering what your main issues with the book are? Those are pretty strong statements you made considering it is a fiction work.
I just finished reading it and, obviously it is not the Bible and I would never replace it for the Bible, but I did feel challenged in my walk with God and in my capacity to understand His love for me…because afterall that is why he sent His son…out of love.
Just curious.
regarding 31 (mike) –
I find it ironic that you spelled both “illiterate” and “unfortunately” wrong …
I don’t know Mike or the author … and I sure didn’t know God while in the Reformed church.
I really enjoyed the book … especially seeing someone else independently come to the some of the same conclusions I did after actually reading the bible. So if satan’s “way” of confusing me is to agree with the bible … He’s quite a different character than I thought.
Predestination has a lot to do with God describing what the Christian life is like – ie, “predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ”. How I read this is that those who follow Christ, their whole purpose is to become like Jesus in thought, word and action. Holiness is the mark of a Christian, it is the norm of a Christian. The struggle with the world’s stuff is the norm for the immature and the one trying to do it in his/her own strength. In the last chapter Young has Jesus saying it is all about Me in you (Christ in us – the phrase and like phrases are used over 200 times in the NT). It’s simple, but somewhat hard to understand that it is God’s holiness reflecting out of us.
I grew up in a Baptist church, but understood as a teen that God has provided everything we need to live a holy life after reading Romans 7 and 8.
Those verses from Philippians, Jeremy, are not talking about salvation. They are talking about in the end that all will recognize that Jesus was who He said He was, the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Those in heaven, on earth, and under the earth… so many different places to reside!